Setarian I cant help her Hi there... straight to this point theres this girl i really care about... really, really love her, more then she has any idea of. right now shes with this guy... really bad guy i might add... he treats her awful but he knows how attached she is and she needs someone... i mean he goes so far as to list off the women that he has slept with WHILE he's been dating her. i need some advice... i keep trying to convince her thats he's awful to her but shes never had any better, and she wont leave him Naru Narusegawa Well, I guess there are two answers to this questions... and either of them is "correct", depending completely on the situation. I dunno how best to put it... but one possibility is that your emotions for this girl are clouding your judgement. I mean, sure, her current boyfriend may treat her badly, but what if she's alright with that? I mean, as long as he's not beating her up or anything, she may have no problems with listing off what girls he's slept with. Afterall, it's in the past, and it's his past to share with his girlfriend however he wishes. Naru Narusegawa I guess what I'm trying to say is... well... maybe because you 'love' this girl so much, you're trying to find reasons to break her up with her current boyfriend so you'd have a chance to date her. I dunno. I mean if she really won't leave him, that means she has some reason to stay with him, no matter how bad she's being treated. It's really up to her to come to the decision to break up with him because it's her own life she has to live... not yours. Naru Narusegawa On the other hand... if he really is hurting her in ways she can't take and is deluding herself to say she really loves him, then there's only one solution. Naru Narusegawa Death! Naru Narusegawa I mean, that'd be the obvious last resort. ^_~ If you really care about her as a 'friend', then talk to her as a 'friend'. Trust me, when a guy is attracted to a girl, the girl will know. They aren't gullible enough to listen to 'reason' when they know part of the reason is because you like them. The best you can do is talk to her and if she has her own reasons for doing what she does, you should respect them and do your best to support her. That's what friends do. Akagi Ritsuko A wise man once said, "Belief without facts, is just an opinion." As surprised as I am to find myself seconding an argument by Ms. Narusegawa, even if you try to convince her that this boy is bad for her, it will likely fall on deaf ears. This is for two reasons: 1) she is "in love" enough with him to stay with him despite the obvious things she has seen him do to prove him unworthy, so secondhand "rumors" are likely to have less weight, and 2) she likely already knows that you are attracted to her, and will therefore automatically suspect you of alterior motives in attempting to make her think badly of her current boyfriend. So, what can you do? If you are willing to persue this, you need proof. Facts, not heresay will carry weight. The challege for you will be to find ingenious methods of acquiring that. Getting this boy to admit it in e-mail can be done...but that is far too easily faked. Instant message or chat rooms could work, but only if she was there to see it in real time. You can improvise a "wire" with a small cassette or digital recorder and a microphone worn unobtrusively. It comes down to showing her the side of him that you see, but that she does not, with evidence that she cannot ignore. Dark Schneider Ladies...there is a side to this you just might be ignoring. The irresistibility of the Bad Boy. Setarian, you may be a great guy and all...but...have you ever considered that she may just not want you? I mean, sure, it may be one of the greatest psychological mysteries known to man, but this is hardly the first time that a nice guy was left wondering why the girl was ignoring him for the Bad Boy. Maybe it's all an act? When she's not around, he's got to beat his chest like the ape he is. Gots to show he's the Mack Daddy. Whatever.... From her side, she's the one who's got the boy all the girls want. And the more that try to shag him, just goes to show how much more desirable he is. Sure, he treats her like shit...but he's cool. More pathetic than that, are the girls that want the Bad Boy, because he's hot, but figure they can change him. So they can keep the parts they want, and eventually work the bad parts they don't like out of him. Like that will ever happen.... But you know all about that, don'tcha Ritsuko? Setarian hey thanks for the advice... as for the me wanting to be with her, the desire has been there in the past and we even gave it a try once but we are just really best friends... in fact according to my parents we even hung out as infants in daycare =) of all the opinions however, schnieders seems to make the most sense, it is in her nature to try to "improve" people, but as for this guy, I think he is beyond that. I suppose the truth is that I am overprotective of her. god knows I've taken more then my fair shair of punches to protect her, but maybe this time I should back off. If it gets bad... physical like... I will unleash my personal style of hellish fury, but untill then i will stand back and let her have her way.. thanks for the help guys